Death Knight Discussion

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Kat
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Death Knight Discussion

Postby Kat » Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:42 pm

Copy paste from Elitisj Jerks DK forum

Adding some stuff for DK's that should be obvious for those reading EJ. But adding em anyway since they are the most asked questions i get about DK's and people are lazy

Unholy

Single Target

Say good bye to the rigid, fixed rotations of the past, and hello to the priority-based playstyle of Cataclysm:

Diseases > Dark Transformation > SS if both Unholy and/or all Death runes are up > FeS if both pairs of Blood and Frost runes are up > DC if SD, 100 RP, will overcap RP with anything else or if RC isn’t up > SS > FeS > DC > HoW.

That likely looks much more intimidating and, in general, complicated than it actually is:

Keeping up diseases is, as it’s (almost) always been, the most important thing, partially for their own potent damage, but primarily because they boost everything else we do. While diseases may only last 33 seconds and Outbreak has an unreducable 60 second cooldown, Festering Strike will bridge the gap, making it so you never have to resort to IT or PS in regular play on a single target.

Then comes Dark Transformation, whose uptime needs to be maximized for optimal dps. DT boosts your Ghoul’s damage by a truckload – a straight up 100% buff overall, plus a 20% Claw specific boost, on top of Claw then cleaving. The second you can DT, you do – no exceptions unless, of course, your ghoul is unable to attack the boss at the time.

You never want to waste runes, which is why SS and FeS when both of their respective rune costs are up comes next.

Just as you don’t want to waste runes, you don’t want to waste potential Sudden Doom procs (by having it just override a yet-to-be-used current one), runic power, or potential Runic Corruption (by having back-to-back procs), which is why you prioritize DC here.

After all of the above is factored away you simply SS, FeS, and DC. The order doesn’t actually particularly matter unless the mob’s death is imminent – in which case you go in that order. If you can, you want to try and avoid back-to-back Death Coils, due to the aforementioned potential loss of RC uptime.

It’s worth noting that on a fight where a npc is constantly healing itself and you can count on the full absorb to be consumed (and the prevented healing would have meant that much more damage needing to be dealt), Necrotic Strike does replace Scourge Strike in your rotation.

A reminder: all of this is done in Unholy Presence.


Multiple Target

The AoE rotation isn’t terribly different from the single target one:

Diseases > Dark Transformation > Death and Decay > SS if both Unholy and/or all Death runes are up > BB + IT if both pairs of Blood and Frost runes are up > DC if SD, 100 RP, will overcap RP with anything else or if RC isn’t up > SS > BB + IT > DC > HoW.

Whenever you apply diseases, you also want to then spread them with Pestilence. As long as there’s at least one mob up who will survive for their full duration (or, of course, more mobs who may live for less), Pestilence is worth it.

Death and Decay is an AoE juggernaut as much as ever (although, yes, Dark Transformation is still more important due to the cleave). As long as there are three mobs who will be in the effect for at least 8 ticks (or two mobs who will be in it for all 12 ticks, if you have it glyphed), DnD is worth using.

Blood Boil use, for Unholy, always results in a leftover Frost rune which one has no choice but to use for Icy Touch. The two, in combination, replace Festering Strike in your rotation. As long as there are three or more mobs present, BB + IT is worth using in place of FeS.

When AoEing, you should always switch to Frost Presence.

Everything else remains relatively unchanged.

STATS

Stat Weights

Specific stat weights of the sort you all are used to will be generated once the patch is live and numbers aren’t in such a state of flux. In the mean time, the following chain of relative worth should be sufficiently accurate:

Hit to cap > Strength > Haste > Crit > Mastery > Expertise to cap > Agility

There’s not a ton to say.

That hit is still king should come as no surprise. Capping that has always been and likely will always be vital to every single dps spec.

Strength is as potent as ever – more so even, thanks to Unholy Might, one of the passives of Unholy.

Haste is ridiculously strong these days, now that it affects the rate at which runes regenerate. There is a softcap to the stat, but the exact percent amount has yet to be determined (and would vary fight by fight, anyways, pending such factors as AMS soaking, Dark Simulacrum use, and so forth). Rough math would say you only start to get in real trouble when you are heading north of 30%, but it hardly matters; even past the soft-cap, haste rating is still above every other secondary stat except crit.

Crit, speaking of, which has always been rather middle-of-the-pack, is actually quite decent. What changed? Pets scale off of it and diseases now benefit. 1% crit is practically 1% dps, for all intents and purposes.

Mastery is quite mediocre, as the numbers currently stand. 1 point of it increases disease damage by 4%, which just isn’t that much of a boost. Compare to crit rating – the two have identical conversion rates – and it’s pretty obvious why it doesn’t stack up. Your disease damage would have to be at least 25% of your total damage for mastery to be worth it, and that just isn’t the case… unless you stacked mastery to get to that point, which would just be silly (and suboptimal).

Expertise is as undesirable as ever. If you can reach the haste soft-cap, then expertise would surpass mastery (due to the fact that you’re GCD capped at that point), but beyond that, expertise is just not worth going out of your way to get.

Agility items will never be taken from now on, unless the ilvl gap between it and a strength piece is something ridiculous (i.e, at least two tiers – 26 ilvls – worth). Part of this is because agility items no longer have attack power, while another part of it is because we get 5% strength for free when wearing all plate.

REFORGING

Follow this thought process when reforging as an Unholy DK:

Are you hit capped?
If yes, then reforge any excess hit into haste, if it’s not already on the piece as well, and to crit if haste is.
If no, then reforge any expertise, mastery, and then crit – in that order – until you reach the hit cap.

Does the piece already have haste?
If yes, then go to the next question.
If no, then reforge any excess hit, expertise, mastery, and then crit – in that order – into as much haste as possible.

Does the piece already have crit?
If yes, and it also has haste/hit (as it should following the previous two questions, then there’s no need to touch it.
If no, and it already has haste/hit (as it should following the previous two questions) and another stat, then reforge the extra stat into crit.
If you say 'plz' because it's shorter than 'please', I'm going to say 'no' because it's shorter than 'yes'.

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Kat
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Re: Death Knight Discussion

Postby Kat » Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:46 am

FROST


ROTATION

Single Target

Say good bye to the rigid, fixed rotations of the past, and hello to the priority-based playstyle of Cataclysm:

Diseases > Ob if both Frost/Unholy pairs and/or both Death runes are up, or if KM is procced >
BS if both Blood Runes are up > FS if RP capped > Rime > Ob > BS > FS > HoW.


First thing first: as stated toward the beginning of this post, dual-wielding will perform this in Frost Presence while those using a two-hander will be best off using Unholy Presence. The reason for this difference is due almost entirely MotFW; not only does the talent substantially increase the value of increased attack speed, but it also GCD caps the spec by a moderate margin, which makes the 1 second globals of UP priceless.

Beyond that, matters are simple enough.

Diseases come first, as always, with Frost Fever being applied by Howling Blast and Blood Plague being applied by Plague Strike. With Rime, you should never have to worry about FF… the odds of going without a Rime proc in a 33 second window are absurdly low. BP maintenance is simple enough – if you have an Unholy rune come up from an RE proc when diseases have about 6 seconds or less left, then go ahead and use it on PS, otherwise just use the next rune that regularly respawns, be it Unholy or Death. When doing so, you may be left with a Frost rune sitting by itself; it’s best to let it sit unless the other Frost rune is also up (or if you need to refresh FF), in which case merely HB.

After that, you prioritize Obliterate and Blood Strike if both runes of the relevant cost (UF/D or B) are up. The reason for this is the same as it’s always been – you don’t want to “waste” runes by sitting on them, when you could have them cooling down. Similarly, you want to FS if RP capped, as wasting runic is just as undesirable.

As well, if Killing Machine is up and Obliterate is usable, you want to Obliterate over the alternative (i.e, Frost Strike). Ob simply benefits more than FS from the buff, although the difference isn’t large enough to warrant holding off on FSing to use the proc on Oblit – you potentially lose procs, in such a scenario, which just isn’t worth it.

If Rime is up, then you obviously want to use it. There's no need to worry about KM: Rime neither benefits from nor consumes the buff any longer. You never want to Obliterate back to back without having used a Rime procced by the first – and if you’re following this priority, that won’t occur, anyways, so not a worry.

If all of the above is taken care of – you have no more than one of each rune type up, KM isn’t active, you have less than capped RP, and Rime isn’t up – then you simply Obliterate and Blood Strike as you can. Remember, under the new rune system you can sit on runes so long as you don’t have both of a single type up, and you won’t lose any dps.

Following that, Frost Strike. Make sure you're not Frost Striking when you don't actually have all six rune on cooldown, as if you only have three, they'll be recharging, and thus RE takes a hit.

And, of course, when left with no other option… Horn of Winter.

Multiple Target

The AoE rotation is actually quite different than the single target one:

HB if both Frost runes and/or both Death runes are up > DnD/PS if both Unholy Runes are up > BS if both Blood Runes are up > FS if RP capped > HB > BS > DnD/PS > FS > HoW.

First off, Frost Presence is mandatory whenever adds are present, whether you be dual-wielding or using a two-hander. No exceptions.

There’s no need to specify applying diseases: you’ll constantly apply them with glyphed Howling Blast (which is your hardest hitting ability, of course) and PS (which you’re going to be tab “spamming” due to the fact that HB leaves you with leftover Unholy runes anyways). Using Pestilence just isn’t worth it when you consider all of that, on top of the whole 50% penalty going on - you might use it when you have a dozen adds up, but rare exceptions like that are it.. You’ll still prioritize DnD over PS whenever it’s off cooldown, of course, but that’s a given.

Following that, you still want to Blood Strike with your runes, not Blood Boil – the reason being BS converts to Death runes, while BB does not. Since a BS + HB > 2x BB, simple decision.

Then, of course, comes the dumping into Frost Strike, followed by using runes on HB/BS/PS/DnD as appropriate. Nothing fancy.

STATS

Tthe following chain of relative worth should be sufficiently accurate for 4.0.1:

Dual Wield
Hit to cap >= Expertise to cap > Strength > Mastery > Haste > Crit > Agility > Hit to spell cap

Two Hand
Hit to cap >= Expertise to cap > Haste > Mastery > Strength > Crit > Agility > Hit to spell cap


There’s not a ton to say.

That hit is still king should come as no surprise. Capping that has always been and likely will always be vital to every single dps spec.

Expertise comes next for similar reasons. As long as dual wielding is GCD capped and the two-hand playstyle values auto-attacking for everything (KM, MotFW procs), expertise is going to be terribly important. Not having it to the soft-cap simply isn’t an option.

The order of value after that point then diverges pending on spec with DW going strength, mastery, haste, then crit, and 2H going haste, mastery, strength, then crit.

When you think about it, the differences are quite logical:

2H, thanks to MotFW and Unholy Presence, absolutely loves haste. It increases auto-attacks which means more MotFW and KM procs. It increases rune regeneration, which means more yellow damage - and, unlike DW, 2H actually has the available globals to make use of those additional abilities. It's truly the "master stat"... with the catch being that it has a "soft cap" (a point where it's value slightly diminishes to be behind that of mastery and strength) around approximately 900 rating (at level 80; the level 85 point has yet to be determined). But otherwise, after that you have mastery which, with the vast reliance on FS which 2H specs have, is absolutely quite potent, essentially tied (but ever so slightly ahead) of strength.

DW, on the other hand, places a premium on strength. This isn't because it benefits more from the stat than 2H, but simply that it doesn't gain extra value from additional stat. Mastery runs a close second, but without the boost which 2H gets from MotFW, it can't actually surpass strength. Similarly, haste comes up in third, all because DW runs in Frost Presence and is thus GCD capped.

And then, towards the end, it all comes together with both specs agreeing on crit's relatively weak nature thanks to KM and the the utter worthlessness of agility! The simple fact is that agility items will never be taken from now on, unless the ilvl gap between it and a strength piece is something ridiculous (i.e, at least two tiers – 26 ilvls – worth). Part of this is because agility items no longer have attack power, while another part of it is because we get 5% strength for free when wearing all plate.

Because Frost doesn’t have the points to spare to take spell hit, it is worth mentioning the stat – although there’s nothing much to say except for that it hardly matters! The only ability used which is affected by spell hit is Howling Blast which is, at most, 10% of your damage. Quite unimportant, and simply being melee capped will leave you with minimal resists anyways.

REFORGING

Are you hit capped?
If yes, then reforge any excess hit into expertise if uncapped, if it’s not already on the piece as well and if you’re not already capped for it, and to haste then mastery (2H) or mastery then haste (DW).
If no, then reforge any excess expertise, crit then mastery (2H) or crit then haste (DW) in that order until you reach the hit cap.

Are you expertise capped?
If yes, then reforge any excess expertise into haste then mastery (2H) or mastery then haste (DW) in that order .
If no, then reforge any crit, mastery, then haste (2H) or crit, haste, then mastery (DW) in that order until you reach the expertise cap.

[2H] Does the piece already have haste?
If yes, then go to the next question.
If no, then reforge any crit then mastery into haste.

[2H] Does the piece already have mastery?
If yes, and it also has hit, expertise, or haste (as it should following the previous questions) then there’s no need to touch it.
If no, and it already has hit, expertise, or haste (as it should following the previous questions), then reforge the crit into mastery.

[DW] Does the piece already have mastery?
If yes, then go to the next question.
If no, then reforge any crit then haste into mastery.

[DW] Does the piece already have haste?
If yes, and it also has hit, expertise, or mastery (as it should following the previous questions) then there’s no need to touch it.
If no, and it already has hit, expertise, or mastery (as it should following the previous questions), then reforge the crit into haste.
If you say 'plz' because it's shorter than 'please', I'm going to say 'no' because it's shorter than 'yes'.

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Kat
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Re: Death Knight Discussion

Postby Kat » Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:46 am

BLOOD

Blood can suck it, hahahahaha!! NO DPS FOR YOU!!!!
If you say 'plz' because it's shorter than 'please', I'm going to say 'no' because it's shorter than 'yes'.

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Re: Death Knight Discussion

Postby Itachi » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:49 pm

Cheers for that Kat, I honestly had no idea wtf to do on my DK after patch :P I still don't find it much fun at the moment but I'm sure it'll grow on me
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Re: Death Knight Discussion

Postby Stevengreat » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:01 am

So, for a DW frost dk which trinkets do you think are better?

Apparatus of Khaz'goroth heroic (http://www.wowhead.com/item=69113) or Essence of the Eternal Flame heroic (http://www.wowhead.com/item=69200)

Vessel of Acceleration heroic (http://www.wowhead.com/item=69167) is out of discussion, we need Ragnaros heroic for that. :)

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Re: Death Knight Discussion

Postby Iots » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:04 am

I would probaly go with the rep trinket, 1min cooldown makes it ideal to use with every pillar of frost.

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Re: Death Knight Discussion

Postby Gurack » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:30 am

Heroic Versions of rep trinkets, while being in databases/on wowhead, arent actually available in game. Just the regular versions.

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Re: Death Knight Discussion

Postby Stevengreat » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:37 am

hm, that's a pity. Hope blizzard will implement this also.

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Kat
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Re: Death Knight Discussion

Postby Kat » Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:32 pm

Ye, its sad that previous content hc trinkets are still BiS (excluding hc rag trinket).
If you say 'plz' because it's shorter than 'please', I'm going to say 'no' because it's shorter than 'yes'.

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Re: Death Knight Discussion

Postby Stevengreat » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:49 pm

It would be nice a CW heroic, but very hard to get it . :)

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Re: Death Knight Discussion

Postby obanas » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:20 am

latest update on 5.2 DK changes.

Death Knight (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)

Might of the Frozen Wastes to 20% melee damage, up from 10%.
Icy Talons increases attack speed by 30%, up from 20%.
Blood Plague and Frost Fever damage +30%.
Howling Blast damage to primary target +23%. Damage to secondary targets remains unchanged. Note: the tooltip for secondary damage says 0.5 but it has been 0.8 for some time.
Scourge Strike damage +7.7%.

tbh buffs seem a bit too high maybe. though we have to keep in ind we will loose very strong 2x set bonus we have now maybe some of these changes are to compensate for that.

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Kat
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Re: Death Knight Discussion

Postby Kat » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:08 pm

Are those all?

I remember there being something that Gargoyle no longer costs runic power and plague strike for unholy also applying frost fever or something along those line. There was something else too but i cant remember
If you say 'plz' because it's shorter than 'please', I'm going to say 'no' because it's shorter than 'yes'.

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Re: Death Knight Discussion

Postby obanas » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:23 pm

nah these are jsut latest changes.
overall there are more changes that were made during the course of PTR.
these are just new additions.

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Re: Death Knight Discussion

Postby Death » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:30 am

hello guys

i checked DW today ,,, i think i will go back to twohand. DW it`s still bad

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Re: Death Knight Discussion

Postby obanas » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:43 am

found this one :
"#Acherus (The Death Knight theorycrafting IRC room) is hosting a roundtable discussion to talk about the current state of affairs for dks. The discussion will take place as a mumble conversation, while being live-streamed to twitch.tv, where a VOD will remain for anyone who misses the original airing.

This will take place on Saturday, April 27th, at 3 PM EST, and will last about an hour. It will be followed by a Q&A with the twitch chatroom. "

should be interestign to listen to theorycrafters discussion.

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Re: Death Knight Discussion

Postby obanas » Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:17 pm

on PTR there are some buffs to DKs. lets hope they will make it trough

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Re: Death Knight Discussion

Postby Serafym » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:42 am

They will, seriously doubt they will let the class as it is atm...its ridiculously low for a class which was always a top dmg dealing class.

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Re: Death Knight Discussion

Postby obanas » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:09 pm

if anyone interested couple days ago Death Knight info on Elitistjerks was updated for 5.4 patch

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Re: Death Knight Discussion

Postby Kikr » Sun May 07, 2017 4:29 pm

Just to be helpful: If anyone needs Guidance about their DK alt give me a /w :)


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